sound collector

Need interviewed by Nick Phillips ,,,..)

I wanted to find out something of your background in the cassette world, which I understand dates back to 1993. What form did your cassette work take, and in what way does the Presocratics relate to or follow from the cassettes? Did these cassettes feature solo compositions or group playing?

Truthfully, the last thing I ever thought I'd have to answer for is my "cassette underground" period. The tapes started as a means of rehearsing for the original "long-distance band" concept of the Presocratics. That didn't last long, but I enjoyed making the tapes. I spent the 80's making "live music" and was pretty burned out with clubs and bands, and that whole thing, so recording became something of a refuge. Recording is very much like painting for me. I've always used whatever I could find for little or no money to make art and that definitely carried over to recording. The first few tapes were actually made with boom boxes pushed together to make "overdubs," just like I had done when I was 12 and made my first "tape piece" with my shortwave radio (true story! I had no idea anyone made music like that). Eventually, I broke down and bought a 4-track. I made tapes in tiny editions, never more than ten. I would give these to friends or "concerned parties" and dump the rest off with my friends at Table of the Elements [T.O.T.E.]. It was a matter of learning and experimenting for me. I was not looking for an audience. Someday, when I have time, I'll go back through these tapes and put together the better pieces on a greatest hits tape. I'm sure it won't be very long, maybe a one-sided tape.

What is the working relationship between you and Jon Philpot? The few pieces of press that I've been able to track down refer to the Presocratics as a solo group--is this correct? Are the original analog pieces recorded then edited by Philpot, or is there a closer, more continuous interplay between the digital and analog aspects?

I met Jon when he was working as an intern at T.O.T.E., that is, I met him in a bar (a little joke here, but true). At the time, Presocratics was very much a solo thing. I had begun talking with Jeff at T.O.T.E. about doing "something" for the label, but there was no urgency. Meanwhile, Jon worked his way into a film editing job with a lot of computer access and ProTools. At some point someone, probably Jeff, suggested that Jon could give me assistance with editing down what was going to be a 7-inch (Self-Evident). Jon and I have always gotten along and working with him was very easy. I was also pleased with what we could do with the computer. So, as the 7-inch grew into a full-length CD, I realized I had found a "co-producer." With Works and Days I created material on my 8-track Tascam, then assembled them with Jon on the computer. Since I'd moved to Seattle and Jon was still in Atlanta, I mixed down to mini-discs, literally dis-assembling what I had previously put together. Then, I got on a plane an went to Atlanta where we loaded it into ProTools, and then moved, and then I moved everything back into place. A very circular route, but we got there. Midway through this process, I realized that Jon was now a Presocratic himself, and he agreed. Jon now lives in Brooklyn, and I live in Seattle, so the original "long-distance" idea came full circle. Since then, we've worked together on an EP, Presocratics Serve Imperialism, and, with that, our first real co-composition. Hopefully, there will be much more collaboration. In March, Jon and I are touring Europe as Presocratics, so it's definitely not a solo thing anymore.

Judging by the obvious evidence of manipulation and editing in Works and Days (by which I mean that the recording foregrounds the ways in which it is a recorded, edited and manipulated artifact), your interest in analog does not square with the traditional insistence of analog's "authenticity," a la Steve Albini or lo-fi indie rock. What do you find to be the benefits of working in analog? What, in your opinion, does digital add to analog?

I doubt any theory of "authenticity". I am surprised by how much is said regarding analog vs. digital. The first 7-inch by Presocratics, Pure Capitalism, was an all analog affair, but I used a digital effects processor, so, you see, there's not 100% purity. I believe in using the tools that are available to me, but not always as they are intended to be used. The majority of Works and Days was made on the Tascam 8-track with my ancient home stereo as a "monitor." Since I now work with Jon using the digital thing, I now work with this process in mind as I create the parts. I no longer try to put it all together at one time, because I know how it will fit when we edit it all together. So, while in many ways I am still "painterly" in creating sounds, the final product is put together more like a film. Some people think digital editing is easy, I don't totally disagree but the choices and decisions that go into making a piece are not any easier. Recently, I've finished a full-length piece, The Ill Tempered Cassette, without the use of a computer, but, even there I'm using mini-discs, re-recording them from analog to digital and back. I do this deliberately to erase any idea of "purity." Maybe one day I'll get a computer myself. Who knows?

While you have worked in the cassette world for seven years now, Works and Days is your first CD release, as far as I can tell. Why the transition? Do you still there is still a viable "cassette underground"? What are the benefits of the cassette medium?

I've always wanted to do a CD, I just wasn't in a hurry about it. I wanted to be ready to go from creating for ten people to one thousand people (or more?). That should take time. There will always be some kind of "underground" I suppose. I hope more people get into mini-discs; I think it's the new cassette. It really doesn't cost any more than a cassette, so there's no exclusivity about it. Mini-disc totally serves the people.

Works and Days strikes me as quite distinct from other "avant-garde" or other "experimental" music I've heard, though it carries a resonances with other groups and composers--Tony Conrad, Richard Youngs, Gastr-del Sol and Fennesz are a few of the people that come immediately to mind. The distinctness, for me, lies in the direct nature of the music, which in the best parts feels stark and intense, even when melodic. Who do you consider your peers, and whom do you look to for inspiration?

The first record I ever went right out and bought after hearing it on the radio was the "single" version of Autobahn by Kraftwerk. This was when it first came out and somehow had made it to top 40 AM radio in Alabama. After playing with shortwave, it was an exciting and validating sound. Before that, my favorite records were The Good The Bad and the Ugly and The Sounds of Sebring. There is so much that's influenced and inspired me, it's almost impossible to pin down. Way back in my teens, it's White Light, White Heat, God Bless the Red Krayola, John Cage, and, again, Morricone. The guitar of Allessandro Alessandroni on Fistful of Dollars probably influenced my guitar more than anyone. In the last decade, Tony Conrad has inspired me, not only in his music, but politically as well. The fact that he is working in the independent realm with T.O.T.E., rather than the "grantcore" world, "getting in the van," and playing rock clubs for sometimes baffled crowds--that's inspiring! As a "producer," my biggest influences are Brian Wilson and, of course, Lee Perry.

One of the most refreshing aspects of the Presocratics is a persistent political aspect, which is abstract and subtle, and yet always evident. Political art always seems to me the hardest to pull off: too obvious and you end up sloganeering, too subtle and the point is lost. I was wondering how you approach the political aspects of the work. Do you consider Presocratics to be political? It seems that a lot of experimental music critics like to compare the abstraction of politicized experimental work to the Situationists, imagining music as a rearrangement of the listener's relationship to the everyday. This always strikes me as somewhat reductive in that it denies the music any political power of its own, instead relegating the power to a kind of subconscious effect on the listener. How do you conceptualize the political dimensions of experimental music?

Confronting the massive violence of political reality with something as ephemeral as music, a song, or an idea seems madness. Yet, this has gone on as long as there have been songs or ideas. Obviously, ideas do change reality, but only with work, sacrifice and time--sometimes even centuries. As far as politics and experimental music go, I have real doubts. Sometimes it seems the whole thing can be marginal and elitist (I guess you could say that of Situationism too). The idea of "revolutionary commodities" seems dubious at best. Regardless of the academics, the Presocratics has a persistent political aspect because I am a self-taught worker. My class has formed my experiences and opinions. As with any artist, this personal experience comes through in the music. The fact that politicism comes into play with the music is both conscious and subconscious. However, this does not mean that I am concerned with making any kind of statement. This politicism is simply part of who I am, therefore it is part of Presocratics.

One of the things that first attracted me to the Works and Days CD, beyond its Table of the Elements affilliation, was the philosophical undertones, from the group name to the quotes on the CD case. As a former philosophy student I was especially interested in your use of Heraclitus, who always struck me as one of the most complicated and ambiguous, and strangely modern of the pre-Socratics. What attracted you to integrate a philosophical aspect to the music? I always took Heraclitus to be an essentially positive thinker in his relentless assertion of the unity of all things, despite a somewhat bleak perspective on other human beings. Yet the quotes chosen for the Works and Days case display a more negative side of Heraclitus. What relevance do you feel Heraclitus has for the Presocratics? (The group, I mean. I don't mean this to be a quiz!)

I became attracted to Presocratics as a group name for several reasons. One reason was that all that exists of these works are fragments and conjecture. I work with the same. Another is that there is not one coherent pre-Socratic philosophy, but many, contradictory ideas grouped together only by a timeline, unlike Young Heglians or The Frankfurt School. Also, it sounds like the world's most pretentious doo-wop group. Herakleitos has fascinated me from my first encounter. I am an avid reader of "ancient" literature: Archilochos, Sappho, Catalus, And I am constantly amazed by how "modern," relevant and personal it is. Every generation likes to think it invented "individuality," so it's amazing to see that all we've ever been is individuals. I find in Herakleitos as much darkness as light, much common sense, and some incoherence. The remark about "money and merchandise" is cutting and bleak, while at the same time pure wit. I like to think that Herakleitos and Lenny Bruce could've hung out together, had some drinks, and laughed at beatniks.